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	<title>Comments on: On Fully Informed Decisions and the Role of Academics</title>
	<atom:link href="http://benlog.com/articles/2007/03/08/on-fully-informed-decisions-and-the-role-of-academics/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://benlog.com/articles/2007/03/08/on-fully-informed-decisions-and-the-role-of-academics/</link>
	<description>crypto applied to public policy</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 06:03:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: ben</title>
		<link>http://benlog.com/articles/2007/03/08/on-fully-informed-decisions-and-the-role-of-academics/#comment-16296</link>
		<dc:creator>ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:40:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benlog.com/articles/2007/03/08/on-fully-informed-decisions-and-the-role-of-academics/#comment-16296</guid>
		<description>Joe,

You're making a good point: how do we certify open-audit systems. I have one idea as to how to start: every open-audit system should publish a reference implementation of the verification program with detailed comments and explanations. That's probably a great place to start the auditing process: what is the verification program verifying, and what guarantees does that verification give us? I'll think about this some more and post thoughts in a few days. Thanks for bringing this up!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe,</p>
<p>You&#8217;re making a good point: how do we certify open-audit systems. I have one idea as to how to start: every open-audit system should publish a reference implementation of the verification program with detailed comments and explanations. That&#8217;s probably a great place to start the auditing process: what is the verification program verifying, and what guarantees does that verification give us? I&#8217;ll think about this some more and post thoughts in a few days. Thanks for bringing this up!</p>
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		<title>By: joe</title>
		<link>http://benlog.com/articles/2007/03/08/on-fully-informed-decisions-and-the-role-of-academics/#comment-16165</link>
		<dc:creator>joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Mar 2007 03:27:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benlog.com/articles/2007/03/08/on-fully-informed-decisions-and-the-role-of-academics/#comment-16165</guid>
		<description>Ok.  The trick is that they seem to know how to write requirements and testing specs for DRE+VVPAT (and other classical systems).  They can't easily write such things for a class as general as "open audit" systems as you describe them.  I know they had been working specifically with VoteHere to do some threat-modeling and attack tree work; I don't know what happened to that or if there are plans to use something like VoteHere or Punchscan as test cases to iron out the innovation class stuff.  I guess we'll see.  The question is, if we want to seriously include these systems as possibilities in legislation like HR 811, what would the language have to look like.  I think waiting for NIST to complete the 2007 VVSG and some test case innovation class work isn't politically feasible in terms of the timing of all this...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok.  The trick is that they seem to know how to write requirements and testing specs for DRE+VVPAT (and other classical systems).  They can&#8217;t easily write such things for a class as general as &#8220;open audit&#8221; systems as you describe them.  I know they had been working specifically with VoteHere to do some threat-modeling and attack tree work; I don&#8217;t know what happened to that or if there are plans to use something like VoteHere or Punchscan as test cases to iron out the innovation class stuff.  I guess we&#8217;ll see.  The question is, if we want to seriously include these systems as possibilities in legislation like HR 811, what would the language have to look like.  I think waiting for NIST to complete the 2007 VVSG and some test case innovation class work isn&#8217;t politically feasible in terms of the timing of all this&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: ben</title>
		<link>http://benlog.com/articles/2007/03/08/on-fully-informed-decisions-and-the-role-of-academics/#comment-16121</link>
		<dc:creator>ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Mar 2007 21:33:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benlog.com/articles/2007/03/08/on-fully-informed-decisions-and-the-role-of-academics/#comment-16121</guid>
		<description>Hi Joe,

Hope you're feeling better!

I think your proposal would certainly be better than what we currently have, but it would probably still be too onerous (and unjustifiably so given how much DRE+VVPAT gets a pass with very little real-world testing). I also think that, in the end, determining how to test crypto auditing will turn out to be a whole lot simpler than classic systems. But I digress a bit.

I would go further than you suggest and say that NIST and the TGDC should complete guidelines on testing cryptographic auditing, and the Holt bill could certainly point to that work as "the standard" for how these things should be tested. At least 2 crypto voting systems have been fully built and tested (VoteHere and Punchscan), which means this is a bit further along than a brand new innovation class.

That said, I think on the core we agree: having *something* in there that accounts for crypto voting and that doesn't prescribe paper no matter what would be a good idea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Joe,</p>
<p>Hope you&#8217;re feeling better!</p>
<p>I think your proposal would certainly be better than what we currently have, but it would probably still be too onerous (and unjustifiably so given how much DRE+VVPAT gets a pass with very little real-world testing). I also think that, in the end, determining how to test crypto auditing will turn out to be a whole lot simpler than classic systems. But I digress a bit.</p>
<p>I would go further than you suggest and say that NIST and the TGDC should complete guidelines on testing cryptographic auditing, and the Holt bill could certainly point to that work as &#8220;the standard&#8221; for how these things should be tested. At least 2 crypto voting systems have been fully built and tested (VoteHere and Punchscan), which means this is a bit further along than a brand new innovation class.</p>
<p>That said, I think on the core we agree: having *something* in there that accounts for crypto voting and that doesn&#8217;t prescribe paper no matter what would be a good idea.</p>
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		<title>By: joe</title>
		<link>http://benlog.com/articles/2007/03/08/on-fully-informed-decisions-and-the-role-of-academics/#comment-16086</link>
		<dc:creator>joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:22:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benlog.com/articles/2007/03/08/on-fully-informed-decisions-and-the-role-of-academics/#comment-16086</guid>
		<description>Sorry to be late to the party here... lame stomach flu.

Ben, you suggest that the bill premise its requirements on "software independence" as articulated by NIST yet the STS subcommittee of the NIST TGDC has found it very difficult to write requirements and testing procedures for independent verification systems based purely on software.  Their current proposal is to allow an "innovation class" where a party could propose a new voting system and NIST would come up with requirements and testing procedures for that new class of voting systems.

So, I think, if software-based IV were to be incorporated as an option in HR 811, the language should not be pinned on "software independence" but more along the lines of: "Any State wishing to use a technology that does not comply with the [paper record requirements] shall submit the technology as an innovation class to the NIST TGDC and have it federally certified in the innovation class to meet the auditability, durability, privacy-preserving and voter verification requirements of this Act."

What do you think of this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry to be late to the party here&#8230; lame stomach flu.</p>
<p>Ben, you suggest that the bill premise its requirements on &#8220;software independence&#8221; as articulated by NIST yet the STS subcommittee of the NIST TGDC has found it very difficult to write requirements and testing procedures for independent verification systems based purely on software.  Their current proposal is to allow an &#8220;innovation class&#8221; where a party could propose a new voting system and NIST would come up with requirements and testing procedures for that new class of voting systems.</p>
<p>So, I think, if software-based IV were to be incorporated as an option in HR 811, the language should not be pinned on &#8220;software independence&#8221; but more along the lines of: &#8220;Any State wishing to use a technology that does not comply with the [paper record requirements] shall submit the technology as an innovation class to the NIST TGDC and have it federally certified in the innovation class to meet the auditability, durability, privacy-preserving and voter verification requirements of this Act.&#8221;</p>
<p>What do you think of this?</p>
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		<title>By: Benlog &#187; Responding to Ronald</title>
		<link>http://benlog.com/articles/2007/03/08/on-fully-informed-decisions-and-the-role-of-academics/#comment-15601</link>
		<dc:creator>Benlog &#187; Responding to Ronald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Mar 2007 06:39:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benlog.com/articles/2007/03/08/on-fully-informed-decisions-and-the-role-of-academics/#comment-15601</guid>
		<description>[...] response to my recent post regarding open-audit voting, Ronald Crane expresses a number of doubts regarding cryptographic auditing of elections, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] response to my recent post regarding open-audit voting, Ronald Crane expresses a number of doubts regarding cryptographic auditing of elections, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: ben</title>
		<link>http://benlog.com/articles/2007/03/08/on-fully-informed-decisions-and-the-role-of-academics/#comment-15600</link>
		<dc:creator>ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Mar 2007 05:49:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benlog.com/articles/2007/03/08/on-fully-informed-decisions-and-the-role-of-academics/#comment-15600</guid>
		<description>Ed, I look forward to your blog post about this. I definitely think the crypto voting systems are ready to be tested, prototyped, evaluated. Most importantly, it would be a huge lost opportunity (and a mistake, I believe) to pass laws that inherently forbid these systems, because of some overly prescriptive approach.

Ronald, you're highly misinformed regarding crypto voting systems. I need to address your points in detail, lest they misinform others. I will do that in a follow-up blog post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ed, I look forward to your blog post about this. I definitely think the crypto voting systems are ready to be tested, prototyped, evaluated. Most importantly, it would be a huge lost opportunity (and a mistake, I believe) to pass laws that inherently forbid these systems, because of some overly prescriptive approach.</p>
<p>Ronald, you&#8217;re highly misinformed regarding crypto voting systems. I need to address your points in detail, lest they misinform others. I will do that in a follow-up blog post.</p>
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		<title>By: Ronald Crane</title>
		<link>http://benlog.com/articles/2007/03/08/on-fully-informed-decisions-and-the-role-of-academics/#comment-15577</link>
		<dc:creator>Ronald Crane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Mar 2007 01:01:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benlog.com/articles/2007/03/08/on-fully-informed-decisions-and-the-role-of-academics/#comment-15577</guid>
		<description>I do not think that crypto voting systems give as much assurance as is commonly claimed.

First, they are not proof against many presentation attacks (e.g., dropping candidates from the ballot, rearranging the ballot, modifying the headers between races, modulating the sensitivity of the touch-screen to make it more difficult to select certain candidates...) nor against delay- or denial-of-service attacks.

Second, though they might (or might not) be proof against vote-flipping attacks, they are not proof against vote-cancellation attacks. In such an attack, the attacker programs the machine to generate a corrupted electronic record of her vote, along with a matching cryptographic receipt. When the votes are tallied, the corrupt record will either not decrypt to anything sensible, or will decrypt, but will contain a bad signature (depending on the crypto scheme). Now it doesn't matter whether the voter checks the tally, since both her electronic record and her receipt are corrupt.

Now let's assume that the attacker corrupted enough records to theoretically flip the election. What do the officials do? Write it off as a "glitch" and certify the election, as is all too common with existing e-voting systems? Order a forensic investigation that concludes long after the fact, long after the attacker's program has erased itself, and long after the election has been certified? Order a re-vote?

I don't see that crypto voting solves much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do not think that crypto voting systems give as much assurance as is commonly claimed.</p>
<p>First, they are not proof against many presentation attacks (e.g., dropping candidates from the ballot, rearranging the ballot, modifying the headers between races, modulating the sensitivity of the touch-screen to make it more difficult to select certain candidates&#8230;) nor against delay- or denial-of-service attacks.</p>
<p>Second, though they might (or might not) be proof against vote-flipping attacks, they are not proof against vote-cancellation attacks. In such an attack, the attacker programs the machine to generate a corrupted electronic record of her vote, along with a matching cryptographic receipt. When the votes are tallied, the corrupt record will either not decrypt to anything sensible, or will decrypt, but will contain a bad signature (depending on the crypto scheme). Now it doesn&#8217;t matter whether the voter checks the tally, since both her electronic record and her receipt are corrupt.</p>
<p>Now let&#8217;s assume that the attacker corrupted enough records to theoretically flip the election. What do the officials do? Write it off as a &#8220;glitch&#8221; and certify the election, as is all too common with existing e-voting systems? Order a forensic investigation that concludes long after the fact, long after the attacker&#8217;s program has erased itself, and long after the election has been certified? Order a re-vote?</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see that crypto voting solves much.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Felten</title>
		<link>http://benlog.com/articles/2007/03/08/on-fully-informed-decisions-and-the-role-of-academics/#comment-15535</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Felten</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2007 15:18:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benlog.com/articles/2007/03/08/on-fully-informed-decisions-and-the-role-of-academics/#comment-15535</guid>
		<description>In the section you quote from my blog post, the key word is "Today's".  The advanced cryptographic systems are interesting, but they're not ready for use yet.  I support the NIST paper's call for more research in this area.  When these systems are ready, I'll support them.  

I'll probably blog about this issue soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the section you quote from my blog post, the key word is &#8220;Today&#8217;s&#8221;.  The advanced cryptographic systems are interesting, but they&#8217;re not ready for use yet.  I support the NIST paper&#8217;s call for more research in this area.  When these systems are ready, I&#8217;ll support them.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;ll probably blog about this issue soon.</p>
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		<title>By: Benlog &#187; I Stand with Avi (regarding American Idol)</title>
		<link>http://benlog.com/articles/2007/03/08/on-fully-informed-decisions-and-the-role-of-academics/#comment-15126</link>
		<dc:creator>Benlog &#187; I Stand with Avi (regarding American Idol)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Mar 2007 20:20:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benlog.com/articles/2007/03/08/on-fully-informed-decisions-and-the-role-of-academics/#comment-15126</guid>
		<description>[...] Home            &#171; On Fully Informed Decisions and the Role of Academics [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Home            &laquo; On Fully Informed Decisions and the Role of Academics [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Avi Rubin</title>
		<link>http://benlog.com/articles/2007/03/08/on-fully-informed-decisions-and-the-role-of-academics/#comment-14985</link>
		<dc:creator>Avi Rubin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Mar 2007 01:18:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benlog.com/articles/2007/03/08/on-fully-informed-decisions-and-the-role-of-academics/#comment-14985</guid>
		<description>Ben, I have read and also studied some of the protocols you describe. I think they are ingenious and extremely interesting. However, if I had tried to discuss these in that hearing, with members of Congress who want to help their districts switch to better voting machines next year, I would have been ignored immediately and not taken seriously for the rest of the hearing. These are people who want today's solution right now. When I meet with these people in less public fora, I always talk about the promise of cryptographic protocols, but if you don't have a certified machine that they can use right away, then they will not be interested in it. You have to understand the circumstances when you make recommendations. I have no doubt that some day we will be using open-audit elections with cryptography, as you call them. It's just that I think there are some barriers to adoption related to complexity, awareness, education, and availability of off the shelf products.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben, I have read and also studied some of the protocols you describe. I think they are ingenious and extremely interesting. However, if I had tried to discuss these in that hearing, with members of Congress who want to help their districts switch to better voting machines next year, I would have been ignored immediately and not taken seriously for the rest of the hearing. These are people who want today&#8217;s solution right now. When I meet with these people in less public fora, I always talk about the promise of cryptographic protocols, but if you don&#8217;t have a certified machine that they can use right away, then they will not be interested in it. You have to understand the circumstances when you make recommendations. I have no doubt that some day we will be using open-audit elections with cryptography, as you call them. It&#8217;s just that I think there are some barriers to adoption related to complexity, awareness, education, and availability of off the shelf products.</p>
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