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	<title>Comments on: Security Theater and Transparency</title>
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	<link>http://benlog.com/articles/2007/10/15/security-theater-and-transparency/</link>
	<description>security, privacy, transparency.</description>
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		<title>By: Punchscan &#187; Complexity and Transparency are not the same</title>
		<link>http://benlog.com/articles/2007/10/15/security-theater-and-transparency/comment-page-1/#comment-138782</link>
		<dc:creator>Punchscan &#187; Complexity and Transparency are not the same</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Oct 2007 22:13:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benlog.com/articles/2007/10/15/security-theater-and-transparency/#comment-138782</guid>
		<description>[...] have been meaning to address this issue in a blog post for some time, but today I see that Ben Adida has already done a pretty good job. While people may have a point that Punchscan and E2E in general [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] have been meaning to address this issue in a blog post for some time, but today I see that Ben Adida has already done a pretty good job. While people may have a point that Punchscan and E2E in general [...]</p>
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		<title>By: joe</title>
		<link>http://benlog.com/articles/2007/10/15/security-theater-and-transparency/comment-page-1/#comment-138764</link>
		<dc:creator>joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Oct 2007 21:50:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benlog.com/articles/2007/10/15/security-theater-and-transparency/#comment-138764</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d challenge you on the assertion that studies have shown that people make mistakes when counting.  There are two studies that I know of that are relevant here and they only apply to a relatively narrow set of circumstances... and they&#039;re both based on observations rather than controled experiments.  We definitely need more experimental work with hand-counting methods to tease out some of these issues.  For example, I&#039;m convinced that there are methods of doing hand counts that result in very very low error rates... but I don&#039;t have the time, resources, etc. to do that work (and election officials I know that have submitted a proposal to do this work were recently denied funding for it).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d challenge you on the assertion that studies have shown that people make mistakes when counting.  There are two studies that I know of that are relevant here and they only apply to a relatively narrow set of circumstances&#8230; and they&#8217;re both based on observations rather than controled experiments.  We definitely need more experimental work with hand-counting methods to tease out some of these issues.  For example, I&#8217;m convinced that there are methods of doing hand counts that result in very very low error rates&#8230; but I don&#8217;t have the time, resources, etc. to do that work (and election officials I know that have submitted a proposal to do this work were recently denied funding for it).</p>
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		<title>By: ben</title>
		<link>http://benlog.com/articles/2007/10/15/security-theater-and-transparency/comment-page-1/#comment-138627</link>
		<dc:creator>ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Oct 2007 16:23:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benlog.com/articles/2007/10/15/security-theater-and-transparency/#comment-138627</guid>
		<description>nedu: ah yes, the ivory tower canard!

Don&#039;t be pained, I&#039;m neither hurt nor angry nor crying in a corner. Because I&#039;ve spent some time in academia, some people assume that I have no idea how the real world works. Or they assume that I would use the exact same approach when writing a cryptography PhD dissertation and when educating the public about interesting new technology. You&#039;re not the first.

I do find it interesting that you continually associate &quot;well-educated&quot; with &quot;impractical.&quot; Sadly, it has become a common trait among activists, and not just in the voting world. There seems to be disdain for education. Certainly, there is always a risk that too much theory will impede practice. But to assume that theory, reasoning, and intellectual debate are inherently bad....  that&#039;s reminiscent of the current US administration, only with a different evidence-free ideology.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>nedu: ah yes, the ivory tower canard!</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t be pained, I&#8217;m neither hurt nor angry nor crying in a corner. Because I&#8217;ve spent some time in academia, some people assume that I have no idea how the real world works. Or they assume that I would use the exact same approach when writing a cryptography PhD dissertation and when educating the public about interesting new technology. You&#8217;re not the first.</p>
<p>I do find it interesting that you continually associate &#8220;well-educated&#8221; with &#8220;impractical.&#8221; Sadly, it has become a common trait among activists, and not just in the voting world. There seems to be disdain for education. Certainly, there is always a risk that too much theory will impede practice. But to assume that theory, reasoning, and intellectual debate are inherently bad&#8230;.  that&#8217;s reminiscent of the current US administration, only with a different evidence-free ideology.</p>
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		<title>By: nedu</title>
		<link>http://benlog.com/articles/2007/10/15/security-theater-and-transparency/comment-page-1/#comment-138177</link>
		<dc:creator>nedu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Oct 2007 02:37:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benlog.com/articles/2007/10/15/security-theater-and-transparency/#comment-138177</guid>
		<description>Let me tell you a story...

In 1954, Thurgood Marshall, then the Chief Counsel for the NAACP, argued before the Supreme Court in the case of &lt;i&gt;Brown v Board of Education&lt;/i&gt;.  The NAACP won.  Following that win, Thurgood Marshall, like many other well-educated people of the time, thought that the states would just integrate their schools.

A few years later, nine black students were selected to attend the 1957-58 school year at Central High School in Little Rock, Arkansas.  The Governor of Arkansas, Orval Faubus, called out the Arkansas National Guard.  The rest, as they say, is history.

The point of this little story?  &quot;Political power flows from the barrel of a gun.&quot;

You can call me misinformed all you like.  But the attitude you&#039;re expressing reminds me a little of Thurgood Marshall&#039;s astonishment.

Real election systems--not ivory tower conceptualizations--but real working election systems channel real political power.

It&#039;s probably impolitic for me to say this:  I read your thesis.  You put a lot of work into it.  I expect you put a lot of heart into it.  So, it pains me to tell you that I don&#039;t think you&#039;re working towards a politically practicable solution.  I don&#039;t know about you, but if someone told me that, I might be hurt or I might get mad. Maybe a little of both.  So, you have my apologies. 

Aw fuckk it, you arent&#039; going to pay any attention anyhow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let me tell you a story&#8230;</p>
<p>In 1954, Thurgood Marshall, then the Chief Counsel for the NAACP, argued before the Supreme Court in the case of <i>Brown v Board of Education</i>.  The NAACP won.  Following that win, Thurgood Marshall, like many other well-educated people of the time, thought that the states would just integrate their schools.</p>
<p>A few years later, nine black students were selected to attend the 1957-58 school year at Central High School in Little Rock, Arkansas.  The Governor of Arkansas, Orval Faubus, called out the Arkansas National Guard.  The rest, as they say, is history.</p>
<p>The point of this little story?  &#8220;Political power flows from the barrel of a gun.&#8221;</p>
<p>You can call me misinformed all you like.  But the attitude you&#8217;re expressing reminds me a little of Thurgood Marshall&#8217;s astonishment.</p>
<p>Real election systems&#8211;not ivory tower conceptualizations&#8211;but real working election systems channel real political power.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s probably impolitic for me to say this:  I read your thesis.  You put a lot of work into it.  I expect you put a lot of heart into it.  So, it pains me to tell you that I don&#8217;t think you&#8217;re working towards a politically practicable solution.  I don&#8217;t know about you, but if someone told me that, I might be hurt or I might get mad. Maybe a little of both.  So, you have my apologies. </p>
<p>Aw fuckk it, you arent&#8217; going to pay any attention anyhow.</p>
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		<title>By: ben</title>
		<link>http://benlog.com/articles/2007/10/15/security-theater-and-transparency/comment-page-1/#comment-138054</link>
		<dc:creator>ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Oct 2007 22:58:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benlog.com/articles/2007/10/15/security-theater-and-transparency/#comment-138054</guid>
		<description>nedu:  I&#039;m fairly certain nothing in my post (or thoughts) implied that voting activists are stupid. I only claimed that they&#039;re misinformed. You, too, are misinformed.

In particular, you mention the problem of election failure, which is crucial. Interestingly,  that&#039;s one major area where open-audit systems shine. If you hand-count ballots, but you lose a ballot box (e.g. 2002, San Francisco, ballot boxes floating in the Bay), then what? Election officials will tell you that mistakes and problems happen all the time, and the biggest problem is that you can&#039;t recover from them, you can barely even detect the problems. As a result, election officials typically hope for a clear, unambiguous winner (no matter what the party), so that no one needs to look too closely at their voting operations.

With open-audit voting, a failure is actually something you can investigate and often recover from. A voter who checks that their ballot made it into the tally using their tracking number can detect if their vote isn&#039;t counted and complain, with court-acceptable proof (a digital signature, which has legal precedent.) An election official can tell if votes were handled incorrectly. And everyone can verify the tally process and provide clear evidence if an error occurs.

So, instead of the contrived three options you present, there&#039;s at least one more  option: build a voting system that can recover from failure. That&#039;s what a few of us are trying to do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>nedu:  I&#8217;m fairly certain nothing in my post (or thoughts) implied that voting activists are stupid. I only claimed that they&#8217;re misinformed. You, too, are misinformed.</p>
<p>In particular, you mention the problem of election failure, which is crucial. Interestingly,  that&#8217;s one major area where open-audit systems shine. If you hand-count ballots, but you lose a ballot box (e.g. 2002, San Francisco, ballot boxes floating in the Bay), then what? Election officials will tell you that mistakes and problems happen all the time, and the biggest problem is that you can&#8217;t recover from them, you can barely even detect the problems. As a result, election officials typically hope for a clear, unambiguous winner (no matter what the party), so that no one needs to look too closely at their voting operations.</p>
<p>With open-audit voting, a failure is actually something you can investigate and often recover from. A voter who checks that their ballot made it into the tally using their tracking number can detect if their vote isn&#8217;t counted and complain, with court-acceptable proof (a digital signature, which has legal precedent.) An election official can tell if votes were handled incorrectly. And everyone can verify the tally process and provide clear evidence if an error occurs.</p>
<p>So, instead of the contrived three options you present, there&#8217;s at least one more  option: build a voting system that can recover from failure. That&#8217;s what a few of us are trying to do.</p>
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		<title>By: nedu</title>
		<link>http://benlog.com/articles/2007/10/15/security-theater-and-transparency/comment-page-1/#comment-137883</link>
		<dc:creator>nedu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Oct 2007 17:48:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benlog.com/articles/2007/10/15/security-theater-and-transparency/#comment-137883</guid>
		<description>Ben,

If you have an election failure, then there are three basic choices:

* Demonstrate or riot.
* Convince lawyers and judges that there&#039;s been an election failure.
* Do nothing.

The activists know about the police tactics used at during N30 (Seattle), FTAA (Miami), RNC (New York) and elsewhere.

Further, the lawyers and judges will refuse to understand the mathematics.  See Sarasota.

Therefore, you seem to be advocating &quot;do nothing&quot; as the response to an election failure.

I know you&#039;re pretty smart.  Don&#039;t assume that everyone else around you is as stupid as a pile of rocks.  Try to understand other people&#039;s perspectives here. M&#039;Kay?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben,</p>
<p>If you have an election failure, then there are three basic choices:</p>
<p>* Demonstrate or riot.<br />
* Convince lawyers and judges that there&#8217;s been an election failure.<br />
* Do nothing.</p>
<p>The activists know about the police tactics used at during N30 (Seattle), FTAA (Miami), RNC (New York) and elsewhere.</p>
<p>Further, the lawyers and judges will refuse to understand the mathematics.  See Sarasota.</p>
<p>Therefore, you seem to be advocating &#8220;do nothing&#8221; as the response to an election failure.</p>
<p>I know you&#8217;re pretty smart.  Don&#8217;t assume that everyone else around you is as stupid as a pile of rocks.  Try to understand other people&#8217;s perspectives here. M&#8217;Kay?</p>
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		<title>By: Stefan</title>
		<link>http://benlog.com/articles/2007/10/15/security-theater-and-transparency/comment-page-1/#comment-137153</link>
		<dc:creator>Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2007 16:43:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benlog.com/articles/2007/10/15/security-theater-and-transparency/#comment-137153</guid>
		<description>Very well articulated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very well articulated.</p>
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